Occupy Wall Street Faces Infiltration and Coup by Capitalists In Disguise

Ron Paul having a cheery old time with Ronald Reagan. Image is a picture signed to Paul by Reagan.

I will gain nothing by arguing with commenters on this page, so don’t be surprised that I don’t have a lot of time to dedicated to it, especially considering how few readers (if any) I stand to gain from doing so. A few points before you comment–if what you write in a comment is covered by these bullet points, I will not take time to respond to your comment:

  • Remember that I speak only for myself on this blog. Not other anarchists, atheists, white people, people who have blogs, people who have DNA, etc…
  • Yes, white privilege exists. If you are white, you have it. To see a sample of privileges you have that come with your whiteness, see this PDF: White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack.
  • Please don’t come to my page to fantasize about anarchists supporting Ron Paul or any other politicians. Anarchists don’t work to preserve the undemocratic U.S. electoral political system in the U.S.: we work to destroy it and replace it with actual democracy, such as consensus decision making.
  • I understand what Ron Paul advocates. This article is not a criticism of his positions. I know what minarchists believe and I oppose it. You will not convince me to drink the RP kool-aid.
  • I am not a Statist or a liberal. I advocate the abolition of coercive and hierarchical governing.
  • Just FYI before you comment: Your brand of libertarianism, aka minarchism, does nothing to address capitalism-caused socioeconomic inequalities, racism, homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia etc. You do not have a position that humanizes immigrants, you have a pro-borders position. I want abolition of borders. Abolition of the State. Abolition of free market capitalism. I’d possibly be okay with economic pluralism, provided that capitalists are not enabled to monopolize resources and that the State is abolished. But that’s another issue for another day.
  • Please don’t keep commenting as though I am ignorant of your positions. I am not. I am growing tired of explaining that.
  • Ron Paul is against immigrant amnesty and wants militarized borders. He is against a woman’s right to abortion. He is a Zionist-supporter (regarding his latest comments on the relationship between Israel/U.S.), making him a huge hypocrite in a thousand ways. And, though many claim that he is against the drug war, it is only the Federal drug war he opposes: he advocates the oppression inherent to State’s Rights, instead of the oppression inherent in Federal powers. I believe in universal human rights, and that includes abolition of hierarchies and coercion—which makes Ron Paul’s positions on these things anathema to me. The states are still coercion, the states are still a form of hierarchical organization.
  • Thank you.Update: Please read this post which contains a very important criticism of this article. Thank you.

    It has become very clear from the minarchist presence at Occupy Wall Street and discourse around the web that the Ron Paul and Ayn Rand acolytes are attempting to hijack the Occupy Wall Street movement as a tool for their own purposes. While they largely claim, with big, innocent puppy eyes, that they are anti-corporatists, these people are nothing more than lassaiz-faire, free-for-all market capitalists, who wish to create a new State in which the police and government serve capitalists and business. Which is awfully funny considering we already live in one version of that State. These free-market capitalists want more.

    These minarchists, who are attempting to steal from the hard-fought labor and repression of organizers and participants of Occupy Wall Street, want to abolish all regulation of the very corporations that OWS seeks to hold accountable. They want to fool you into thinking that their ideology’s logical conclusion isn’t to abolish the EPA, public education, unions, [don’t forget the minimum wage, child labor laws, 40hr workweek, social security and every other safety net for those who are most exploited by capitalism], all financial regulation (regulation that is already so weak that it caused an economic collapse around the world), and allow corporations and capitalists to take their place as unregulated, official rulers of our society.

    I propose that we treat these minarchists no differently than the neo-Nazis who prey upon people[*] using recruiting tactics at high schools, shows, protest events, and colleges. They should be treated no differently than any other infiltrators or attackers of our cause. This as an incursion, an attempt at a coup of the Occupy Wall Street movement in order to further their own free-market goals.

    We’re talking about people who openly despise Leftists. They openly despise socialists, communists, liberals, anarchists and anyone else who rejects their individualist, Statist capitalism. Their Free Market Religion is a hoax. They are right-wing; don’t let them fool you otherwise.

    Here’s a prime example of the deceptive framing of the Ron Paul acolytes’ intentions which we’re seeing every day at OWS:

    [*]I’ve edited the word “youth” out to replace it with the word “people.” I feel that the use of the word “youth” implies a condescending attitude towards Occupiers and youth alike, neither of which persons should be insulted. Thanks.

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91 thoughts on “Occupy Wall Street Faces Infiltration and Coup by Capitalists In Disguise

  1. TRON Paul says:

    You are stupid.
    I am white.
    Deal with it.

    • Ben Fenton says:

      It’s not about our being white; it’s about how you deal with the consequences of living in a construct of institutional racism. I am not surprised, but certainly unimpressed with the general denial by RP supporters on this issue. It is revealing in that it shows that RP’s voting bloc tends towards protection of white privileges. You folks seem to be unwilling to even confront your own complicity to social inequality.

  2. “…individualist, Statist, capitalism.”

  3. Amin Khad says:

    Socialism is a horrible horrible way to organize an economy. The West became wealthy due to the market-based economic organization.

    I strongly suggest you watch this TED video, ‘Niall Ferguson: The 6 killer apps of prosperity’:

    tl;dr STOP BEING A STUPID COMMIE

  4. Conspiracygirl says:

    Here’s a very simple solution to your frustration. Why don’t you just restate Ron Paul’s positions on a plethora of issues in a manner that Ron Paul supporters would agree was an accurate depiction of his positions. No copying and pasting. Also indlude why he holds that position – the premise behind his reasoning.

    Once you have correctly restated his positions, and not distorted, straw manned, or caricaturized them, I trust his supporters will agree that you understand his positions. Easy, since you supposedly already know it all….. 🙂

  5. Conspiracygirl says:

    Capitalism causes homophobia, transphobia, xenophobia…? Oh, I didn’t know that homosexuals were beloved in the Soviet Union. All those stories about the Soviets persecuting Jews and Muslim minorities must have been capitalist propaganda.

  6. BFlava Flav says:

    “you just want to get your ideas out there and force them down our throats.”

    Isnt that the exact idea behind any protest including OWS? Your arguments have made me bored. Have fun with your agenda….

  7. BFlava Flav says:

    Recruitment camp Ben? We know we dont have much in common with socialists. Like I said, we’ve had Ron Paul/End the Fed events planned for months now, long before OWS. You say we should be kicked out, kicked out of what? We are just as free as you are to protest.

    Proven your point, how so? We NEVER hid that we want capitalism (not the government sponsored corporatism we have now). Our agenda is not hidden and the goal is for Ron Paul to occupy the white house in 2012.

    • Ben Fenton says:

      “I am in Wisconsin and have witnessed first hand the same kind of protesting that is happening with OWS. The OWS protesting will amount to nothing, you will get zero of your demands, you will NEVER get rid of capitalism in this country.”
      That is how you prove my point. You don’t give a fuck about OWS, you just want to get your ideas out there and force them down our throats. It’s been going on in this comments section all morning. *choke* But I’ve managed not to swallow too much of it.

      I already pointed out that you guys did NOTHING to contribute to OWS, you just want to reap all the benefits. That’s privilege for ya!

      • Conspiracygirl says:

        Are you trying to make the claim that the OWS protesters are a homogeneous uprising of people who all hold your same views….? Have you ever listened to these people…?

        If you want to make the claim that OWS represents the 99%, then do the simple math and recognize that half this country belongs to the right and does not oppose capitalism. Corporatism, yes. Capitalism, no.

        BTW, it is RP people who have been trying to keep your movement from getting co-opted. Leftists have been doing a piss-poor job of it. They’ve been playing right into the hands of the corporations.

  8. Stinsky says:

    We don’t despise anarchists. We are anarchists.

    Advocating the non aggression principle does not resemble in any way advocating National Socialism.

  9. “While they largely claim, with big, innocent puppy eyes, that they are anti-corporatists, these people are nothing more than lassaiz-faire, free-for-all market capitalists, who wish to create a new State in which the police and government serve capitalists and business. Which is awfully funny considering we already live in one version of that State. These free-market capitalists want more.”

    Look, if you want to be a socialist (or whatever you are; I’ve never read your blog, so I don’t know), fine. I’ll disagree with you, but I won’t deny your right to believe whatever you want.

    But please, do not misrepresent what libertarians (including myself) want. Being laissez-faire and free-market is antithetical to, and exclusive of, “wish[ing] to create a new State in which the police and government serve capitalists and business”. Why? Because free-market libertarianism would abolish all the cronyism that exists between big-business and government! The two are total opposites; Alexander Hamilton wanted central-banking, “internal improvements” (government subsidized industry), and high tariffs (to protect government-favored industries), and the Jeffersonians responded that this was all exactly the sort of British mercantilism that the American Revolution was fought to abolish, and that Hamilton’s program would result in the government favoring northeastern industry over the rest of the countries’ farmers.

    There is a world of difference between someone who wants the government in bed with industry, and someone who wants to cut the umbilical cord. After all, “laissez-faire” means, “let everything be free”, which includes having the economy be free of government subsidies and favoritism and protectionism for cronies!

    For example, that “End the Fed” video you posted? The whole point of that protester is to end the relationship between the government and money. It is the opposite of cronyism! The whole point of the Federal Reserve is to protect bankers and put them on a favored pedestal above the rest of us, and libertarians oppose that.

    If you want to oppose laissez-faire economics and libertarianism, fine, that is your prerogative. But please, do not paint libertarians as being identical to neo-mercantilists. Neo-mercantilism (protectionism, crony-capitalism) is closer to Soviet-style state-socialism than it is to laissez-faire libertarianism.

    • Case in point: Ron Paul opposed the repeal of Glass-Steagall, and on that count, he sided with the Democrats, not the Republicans. Why? Because, Paul said, while we do need to repeal regulations of Wall Street (in his opinion), first, he said, we need to abolish the government’s promising to bailout Wall Street when it fails. That is, Paul held that you cannot repeal regulations until you first abolish bailouts.

      So that is the difference between a laissez-faire libertarian and a neo-mercantilist Republican: the Republican wants to let business be free and unregulated, but also suck at the government’s teet. The libertarian wants to let business be free and unregulated, but also ban the sucking at the government’s teet, and until the teet is banned, the regulations must remain in place.

      Agree or disagree with Paul, you have to admit, his position is not that of the Republicans. Thus, on Glass-Steagall, Paul voted with the Democrats.

      • Ben Fenton says:

        Don’t care. I’m not a Democrat. And what you are saying is deceiving: sure, you don’t want business “Sucking at the teat” of gov—because to you government should serve to protect capitalism no matter what its flaws are, no matter how much stratification and poverty it causes. It’s why you guys care nothing about such issues as racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc. These things are made structural and concrete by the State and capitalism. And I’m guessing that you have no problem continuing to deport people (i.e. pregnant women, children, breakin gup families, etc) because they’re not from the U.S., and continue to obstruct them from a pathway to citizenship. I could go on and on….

        • Kyle says:

          You complain that we don’t care about this.. or this.. or that.. You know what.. back up your claims with proof and evidence.. You claim that capitalism caused all of this when the government created it.. and you whine and complain that capitalism is owned by the government when people are saying that if you take away the base of power capitalism will be able to bring us the freedom we want.. you talk about flaws about how about the flaws of your anarcho-socialist idea that will lead to another government.. everything comes back to the government no matter what the ideas are.. you complain yet you do absolutely nothing to change it.

          • Ben Fenton says:

            How would you know what I do? Anyways, I’ve been too busy trying to make sense of the nonsense comments being added by Ron Paul fanatics on my page. I haven’t been able to do much else lately.
            –Ben

        • J says:

          Wouldn’t businesses getting bailed out serve to protect the broken system that you speak of? Not sure I understand what you are saying there. In your anarcho-socialist world how would you do anything about racism or any of the phobias you mention? Oh and I am a libertarian, Ron Paul supporter who ultimately wants anarchism and openly opposes racism, sooooooo not sure what you are talking about when you mention “you guys”.

          • Ben Fenton says:

            Would Ron Paul serve to abolish the state? No. He wants to “bring the troops home” and have a war against immigrants. He would do nothing to confront and destroy systems of oppression in the U.S., and instead would seek to preserve the existence of the government. If you want anarchism and you oppose racism, J, RP is not your candidate. There is no anarchist candidate for the electoral system, and the fact that I have to say that out loud is unbelievable.

            • I’m not really sure how much Ron Paul has against immigrants. After all, he almost never speaks about them, except when someone else asks him a question about them. So personally, I suspect he doesn’t really care about immigrants very much, one way or the other.

              And when he does speak of them, he speaks more about cutting off welfare benefits to them, than he does about deporting them. His concern seems to be more with the taxpayer-liability for immigrants, than with the immigrants per se.

        • “It’s why you guys care nothing about such issues as racism, homophobia, transphobia, etc.”

          Frederic Bastiat, “That Which is Seen, and that Which is Not Seen”: “But, by a deduction as false as it is unjust, do you know what economists are accused of? It is, that when we disapprove of Government support, we are supposed to disapprove of the thing itself whose support is discussed; and to be the enemies of every kind of activity, because we desire to see those activities, on the one hand free, and on the other seeking their own reward in themselves. Thus, if we think that the State should not interfere by taxation in religious affairs, we are atheists. If we think the State ought not to interfere by taxation in education, we are hostile to knowledge. If we say that the State ought not by taxation to give a fictitious value to land, or to any particular branch of industry, we are enemies to property and labour. If we think that the State ought not to support artists, we are barbarians who look upon the arts as useless.”

          You are correct that I do not want the government to do anything about racism, etc. But guess what? I am also an Orthodox Jew who eats food everyday, but I don’t want the government running the synagogues or growing the wheat. There are certain things which, no matter how important they are, are simply not within the government’s jurisdiction. (Actually, I am an anarcho-capitalist, so I do not believe anything is within the government’s jurisdiction, but if I had to choose something to delegate to the government, I’d choose defense and security.)

  10. BFlava Flav says:

    you are correct, we want free market capitalism. You are incorrect that we want to get rid of the 40hr work week and ALL the other stuff you mentioned except unions. Well unions can stay if they choose but there should be no mandate that you have to join a union to get a particular job = right to work.

    We are not trying to take over OWS, we have been occupying the Federal Reserve banks for years now. We are against the bailouts. Our only goal is to have Ron Paul occupy the white house next year. Just because we are taking to the streets with our signs to promote Ron Paul we are trying to steal your thunder? Some of our events have been planned long before OWS….You give yourself too much credit. When OWS is said and done we will still be occupying the Fed and waving our signs in the streets.

    I am in Wisconsin and have witnessed first hand the same kind of protesting that is happening with OWS. The OWS protesting will amount to nothing, you will get zero of your demands, you will NEVER get rid of capitalism in this country. The only way to bring change is to get rid of the politicians who are owned and operate for the bankers and big corporations = Obama, Bush’s, Clinton’s…..

    • Ben Fenton says:

      And you wonder why I think you should be kicked out? Gimme a break….

      Here again you prove that OWS is nothing more than a recruitment camp to you guys. You don’t even believe in the cause, or in any of us. You have proven my point exactly.

      • J says:

        what is the “cause” exactly and who is “us”?

      • Conspiracygirl says:

        Kicked out…? Forcibly…? By whom…? By someone with a legal monopoly on the use of force…? Or yourself, perhaps..?

        That sounds very…. aggressive.

        • Ben Fenton says:

          Awwww well poor little innocent you. Aggressive? Yes. I’m not a fucking liberal. I’d smash the face of oppression no matter who it belongs to.

      • KingANuthin says:

        ..and you have proven that you are not against the police state, you just want to gain control of it.

        • Ben Fenton says:

          You guys are running in circles trying to make sense of what I’m saying. It’s entertaining.
          By kicked out, I mean that anyone who wants to live free of the oppression inherent to capitalism should kick you guys out, physically, make you leave from any action that seeks to eliminate the current class system and social stratification it causes. Period.

  11. Jay Brys says:

    I don’t think the Ron Paul fanatics think you’re ignorant of capitalism; I think they believe you’re foolish for trusting that an institution based on 51% of the vote from people acting on a passing whim is an effective form of government.

    • Ben Fenton says:

      I don’t think there is an effective form of government, excepting that of people governing themselves. So I tend to agree with them on that point. The problem is, Ron Paul supporters are minarchists–they want a government that serves capitalism, and they think the markets will be responsible and regulate themselves, despite all evidence to the contrary. If we ever decide to stop being lazy and appointing individuals and agencies to take care of us, and instead deal with our problems as communities and as actual human beings who live with each other, we’ll be great. And for the record, I’m all for economic pluralism, given that no single economic ideology or practice be given precedent over any other (respective to its practicality and needs.) Thanks for the civility of the comment, Jay–it’s refreshing.

      • Amin Khad says:

        You demonize capitalism without warrant. There’s no conceivable reason to oppose free market association. You can even have a socialist state, or a commune, with a market-based society, but it would be voluntary, with all participants choosing to be there.

        • Ben Fenton says:

          “There’s no conceivable reason to oppose free market association.” That is a statement that begs ignorance. Simply because you are not the target of capitalist oppression, that does not mean that capitalism commits no crimes. It does, on a daily basis, and against millions of people. It’s just not happening to you, so, hey, why worry right?

    • Stinsky says:

      Not a RP fanatic, but it is obvious the writer does not understand capitalism. He opposes crony capitalism.

  12. Kyle says:

    160,000 pages of regulations is weak.. alright.. I’ll change the way I look at regulations.. apparently there wasn’t enough regulations to prevent this collapse.

    • Kyle says:

      Btw.. Acting like this is your movement.. for your ideas alone and calling it Hijacked because there are other people that are just as dissatisfied with Wall Street and the Government is a specious argument at best.. an outright lie at worst. You’re acting like people can’t protest against the same thing because they have different conclusions as to why things happened. It doesn’t mean you’re right, it doesn’t mean they are right either (although I do agree with them more than I agree with you). You’re trying to make this protest solely about your beliefs and others can be discounted. They aren’t going in with disguises.. their signs and what they are talking about isn’t infiltrating either.. It’s not like they walked in and were like yea, yea with agree with your reasons because they aren’t.. They are stating their dissatisfaction with the system the same as you except they have different reasons for their dissatisfaction. You say it’s Capitalism’s fault (even though the government has expanded throughout the history of the United States). You say that the Free-Market needs a government which is completely contradictory in nature. You say that the movement is yours alone when it isn’t. You hate the corporations like we do, you think the government shouldn’t support them or be owned by them. We think that the corporations shouldn’t be treated as people because they aren’t people only the people that run them are. Who gives the power to these corporations.. the government does.. yet you ask the government to punish them when you supported regulations that got rid of Corporate competition. I can make comparisons all day between me and you. You see it as Me versus you.. I see it as us versus the Corporations.. I see it as us against the State (albeit for different reasons). If you want more government.. more power to you.. let me opt out of your system so we can create our own government or no government at all. We will let you keep what you want so long as you don’t try to force your way of life onto us.

      • Ben Fenton says:

        First of all, I’m not a liberal and I want no government, not more government. Second, Ron Paul minarchists contributed nothing to OWS and only jumped onboard to use it as a recruiting tool when things started picking up. Believe me, I’ve been reporting on it since before the Sept. 17 event.

        For as long as business and capitalism proves that it only destroys and creates inequality, and reverts to corporatism no matter how regulated it is or how free the markets are (see my post on the lie of Free Markets) I will oppose capitalism. If capitalism can prove otherwise, as well as prove that it can live alongside other economic systems without monopolizing resources and destroying everything it touches, then I’m all for economic pluralism.

        • Kyle says:

          I never said you were a liberal.. I did say that you are trying to create an us vs them mentality with people that are protesting Wall Street.

          There are people around the United States that support Ron Paul and are Minarchists/Anarchists that have contributed to the OWS movement before people tried to endorse it or as you say ‘jumped’ onboard. Personally I supported the OWS movements when they first happened and talked to people around me about it. The idea is excited. What is really turning me off to the movement right now is the mentality of us vs them and fighting with people that support the movement inside the movement itself.

          There is no point in debating with you about business and capitalism.. as you clearly point out it only destroys (except for all the things businesses create) and inequality is created by government mandate.. and to be perfectly honest life is not fair.. and I don’t think that it is right to take from one person to give to another to make things equal. Everyone has the ability to climb to the top in a (true) capitalist system. Currently, people can’t even do that because the government protects the rich from failure and gives them monopolies in their businesses so there can be no competition.

          You can oppose capitalism all you want.. I honestly do not care.. however.. I do care that people that do oppose it want to use the government to get their way.. and that is what I don’t care for.

          • Ben Fenton says:

            Your remarks reveal that you care nothing for the plight of systemic racism and inequality that capitalism creates. And no, there is not a single anarchist who supports Ron Paul. Ron Paul deals with white nationalist groups, and is a politician: these are both things an anarchist would never support.

            Business creates what? Socioeconomic inequality. You say life isn’t fair. I say, that’s convenient coming from you. I’m sure you think that it’s perfectly fine that we don’t work to solve those problems, because they are not your problems.

            • Kyle says:

              “Your remarks reveal that you care nothing for the plight of systemic racism and inequality that capitalism creates.”

              You say capitalism creates it.. I say that government creates it,

              “And no, there is not a single anarchist who supports Ron Paul.”

              Wrong.. there are.. they just aren’t in your Anarcho-Socialist/Communist camp.

              “Ron Paul deals with white nationalist groups, and is a politician: these are both things an anarchist would never support.”

              Just because white nationalist groups support him doesn’t mean he is a white nationalist.. I’m sorry, but I don’t believe in guilt by association. However, as for the politician platform yes, there are anarchists that do support it because they see that any step towards the freedom from government is a step to anarchy.

              “Business creates what? Socioeconomic inequality.”

              Let us forget the products that businesses create to help better our lives.. and I’m not talking about Luxury items here.. I’m talking about products that people need for their lives. Socioeconomic inequality has been created at government mandate.. even when it has been tried to make equality by force things still become unequal. Capitalism creates the equality of opportunity.. something that we haven’t had for a long time.

              “You say life isn’t fair. I say, that’s convenient coming from you.”

              You don’t know anything about me.. you don’t know anything about my background or my parents background.. So please.. don’t tell me that it’s convenient.. I know that life isn’t fair.. I don’t try to force my views or use my views to lobby the government.

              ” I’m sure you think that it’s perfectly fine that we don’t work to solve those problems, because they are not your problems.”

              Funny story.. people have worked to try to solve these problems.. some people used government.. which created even more problems.. especially with taxing people so much that they can’t afford to help out their fellow man. I say that if people were allowed to keep the fruits of their labor the amount of money charities and volunteer organizations can get from donations would help the problem.

              • Ben Fenton says:

                I stopped reading after a few lines b/c I want to clear a couple things up. One, no anarchists do not support politicians. No. They. Don’t. Just think about the relationship between anarchism and electoral politics.

                Two. The state does play a role in preserving racist hierarchy, but that does not exonerate capitalism.

                Three. Ron Paul has actively dealt, knowingly, with white nationalist groups like American Renaissance, has openly worked with the KKK and is not working to alleviate racism when he endorses anti-immigrant policy and the militarization of our borders.

                I can’t keep up with arguing point-by-point through all this stuff. Chances are doing so will not gain me a single reader. This has become time consuming without benefiting anyone involved. In other words, don’t be surprised when long-ass questions don’t get answered.

                • “One, no anarchists do not support politicians.”

                  Lysander Spooner would beg to differ. In “No Treason”, he says that a man might vote for a politician, the same way that a slave, if given the choice between two slavemasters, might vote for one or the other. It does not imply consent to be governed, Spooner says, only the pragmatic decision that if one can vote for who shall be his tyrannical overlord, he may as well make the best of a bad situation.

    • Ben Fenton says:

      Have you seen what Shell Corporation has done in the Niger Delta? Have you seen the effects of the BP oil spill on communities? Have you seen capitalism address poverty in any meaningful way? What about racism? Sexism? Homophobia? Have private school vouchers improved education? I could go on and on about regulations….there can never be enough, and we should get to the root of the problem: regulation (the government) doesn’t work, and neither does capitalism. End them both.

      • Kyle says:

        “Have you seen what Shell Corporation has done in the Niger Delta?”

        Yes I have heard about it.. yet I can also point out to you that that the government of Niger is so dependent on exporting it that they didn’t care what was done until it happened.. even then the people had no way to sue because land was held in common.

        I have seen the effects of the BP oil spill on communities and again.. the contributing factors of the spill were the government mandates that you can only drill in an area for a given amount of time before you had to move. Also, I do agree that there were STUPID mistakes on the part of the company that shouldn’t have been done in the first place. I also place blame for trying to be hasty instead of doing things right.. like they normally would if the land was not leased out to them but instead they owned the land. Also, because of the EPA some people are not allowed to sue BP for the oil spill and the ill effects of pollution on their land.

        Poverty – Actually.. yes I have seen Capitalism address poverty in a meaningful way.. and I call it donation and charity.. because Capitalism is the only system in the world that allows people to keep the fruits of their labor.. I also believe that people are willing to give their money to people because they are good. However, with the current system that we have in the world people cannot donate more than they would normally like to and the fact that the government says that they will help the poor with tax dollars gives people less incentive (and less money to donate to the poor anyways). What about racism? Given that businesses want the money of anyone makes it bad on the company if they are racist. In a capitalist system if a business is racist people won’t buy from the company and the reputation of that company will be damaged however, another point is all of the things about racism, sexism and homophobia are all social issues that only people themselves can change their attitudes to. All capitalism is.. is 100% economic freedom from government.. and with it.. 100% social freedom from government as well (in my view.. I’m an Anarcho-Capitalist.. I believe having a government at all is a detriment to freedom of all people all the time). No, private school vouchers hasn’t helped education because there are still public schools in the system. The private schools are without a doubt vastly better than the public schools because they don’t rely completely on taxes to get money. With that being said as well the process to get a voucher for a private school is harder than sending a kid to public school.. at least last time I checked.

        I agree with you about one of the roots.. the government.. However, I don’t think Capitalism is the problem because we don’t have it.. We have mixed economies that either are more capitalistic or less capitalistic. The more capitalistic the country is the better off they are.. especially in this current economic crisis. However, without strong private property rights in a system.. it doesn’t matter how capitalistic you are.. it’s a joke when your land can be destroyed or taken away at any time.

        • Ben Fenton says:

          The fact that you ignore the role that capitalism has in furthering racism, sexism and other social inequity tells me that you probably don’t care much about such things, or you would know better. And saying charity is an answer…look, it’s not just condescending but it’s downright ignorant of you. People want opportunities and equal outcomes. Not a box of food or a handout.

          To say that we aren’t in a capitalist state is more than dishonest. I’m beginning to think that all you guys are white, privileged males. Oh wait, you are.

          • Kyle says:

            Government has furthered the roll in all of these things.. we can take a look back at history and see it.

            Here you are discounting help to get back on your feet as something that is bad. Capitalism provides for opportunities.. outcomes will never be equal because there are different situations and different cases that are entirely unique to every situation.

            We aren’t in a capitalist state.. We’re in a Mixed economy but you wouldn’t know anything about that now would you..

            Oh.. awesome.. talk about racism and make racist remarks.. You’re being a hypocrite.

            • Matthew says:

              Let’s not forget, in a free world you have the right to be racist! And in a free market you would easily be punished for it as people would refuse to use your services and if not, someone would see a opening in the market place to serve that discriminated group.

              And don’t forget we see forms of discrimination every single day. Be it Senior discounts, student discounts, ladies drink free all night.

              Plus Kyle, I hope your not assuming I am white 😉

              • Matthew says:

                That last remark is to Ben, not Kyle! That though would not have even crossed Kyle’s mind!

              • Kyle says:

                I’m not assuming that you’re white.. I don’t judge people based on the color of their skin, their creed or their sexual orientation. I want everyone to be free.. and to be free with me.

            • Ben Fenton says:

              White privilege is something you have. It is not racist to call someone out for it. You once again prove that you are white, privileged and willing to protect it.

          • I’m glad you think $35k a year is privileged. Granted I am white. My liberal friendsalways ask about race, and I consider it a nonpoint. Racism comes from upbringing and association usually. I personally have seen more racism come from minorities than from whites. My point is, if you don’t want racism, we need a different tactic than what we’ve been doing. Saying we’re all equal, then allowing different treatment of minorities as a reconciliation of past injustices at the hands of white folks that are dead is counter productive. Capitalism rewards those that do the best job, whether white, black, brown, male female, transgender, gay. Capitalism wants money, and it doesn’t care what color the hands are in the transaction. If you don’t want to clean up shit, you find a better job. Your lot in life is up to you and no one else.

            • Ben Fenton says:

              White privilege has nothing to do with income. You are privileged because of your whiteness whether or not you have a job at all. The fact that you are unfamiliar with this subject matter shows just how privileged you are, and willing to fight to protect that privilege (I’m speculating).

      • End government, and end private property. So what, will we just forage for whatever food happens to grow of its own accord?

  13. Matthew says:

    “who wish to create a new State in which the police and government serve capitalists and business. Which is awfully funny considering we already live in one version of that State.”

    Can you give some exact quote of Ron Paul or anything from his manifesto which show this?

    “They want to fool you into thinking that their ideology’s logical conclusion isn’t to abolish the EPA, public education, unions, [don’t forget the minimum wage, child labor laws, 40hr workweek, social security and every other safety net for those who are most exploited by capitalism], all financial regulation (regulation that is already so weak that it caused an economic collapse around the world)”

    Ron Paul has also said that he would DO all this, it is part of the Austrian School of economics which might I add, predicted all this and Ron Paul has been saying would occur for over 40 years. Look up Austrian Business Cycle Theory.

    And to blame lack of regulations for the financial collapse is just economic ignorance on your part. It was a mix of government created moral hazards, fascist economic control from Washington and the prime reason that this collapse would have occurred regardless of anything else, the central bank known as the Federal Reserve.

    As for your neo-nazi comment, I find that rather cute as we are already living in a fascist state. May I suggest reading Mussolini’s book – Fascism.

    • Ben Fenton says:

      I already know about Italian fascism, but thanks for assuming. As I said in the article, we already live in one version of that State.

      Ron Paul is a politician. I don’t give a fuck, not a single one, what Ron Paul wants. He offers no commentary on socioeconomic inequality, largely because he plays dog-whistle to white nationalists, one of his voting blocs.

      “Can you give some exact quote of Ron Paul or anything from his manifesto which show this? ”
      What I said is what your ideology of abolishing regulation, but keeping the State intact to protect capitalism, will lead to. I am not addressing Ron Paul’s views in particular: I am addressing your minarchist ideology in general and its logical conclusions.

      • Kyle says:

        The minarchist theory has already been proven wrong.. however, the state would only be intact to protect the property rights of everyone. However, I don’t agree with that delusion.. the state will grow bigger and it will protect businesses that it likes at the expense of businesses that it doesn’t like.. it will give monopoly protection and it will screw people over.. 200+ years of a minarchist experiment have shown that the government will inevitably grown to exactly what we are seeing the US right now.

      • Matthew says:

        White nationalists?? Where are you getting this from? And socioeconomic inequality? He has address this! Why do you think he talks about the Federal Reserve so much!! Government meddling in the economy and monetary inflation caused by the FED is the reason we have such vast inequality.

        Use the State to protect Capitalism? That’s my ideology? Wow Ben, you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. A huge chunk of his supporters want to abolish the State period, including me. The only case for even having a State is to mediate in contract law disputes and assist in enforcing private property rights and even this can be done privately. Our “ideology” is pretty simple: individual liberty and private property.There you go freedom. You are just showing your complete ignorance of Ron Paul and it is there for all to see. In fact you remind me of a lot of my Republican friends in regards to him.

        • Kyle says:

          Yeah.. I think this guy is a joke now.. he talks about racism.. then he makes a racist remark that we’re all privileged white males because only privileged white males believe this.

          Yeah.. I’m done debating this guy.. he’s now attacking people personally.

        • Ben Fenton says:

          First, if you do not know that Ron Paul mingles with white nationalists and that they make up a sizable chunk of his voting bloc, that’s not my fault. That’s yours.

          What function does the State serve if Ron Paul gets his way?

          Where do you get your private property? How much are you allowed? How will you address socioeconomic inequality?

          Yes, yes, you keep repeating that I’m not familiar with ol’ Ronnie Paul. But I know exactly what he’s about. I used to like him too, till I, like so many others, figured out what he’s about.

          And I doubt there’s anyone supporting Ron Paul, a politician, who truly wants abolition of the State in its entirety. I’m not talking about the government. I’m talking about the State and all its apparatus–the police included. Do you support that? Do any RP-ites you know?

          • Matthew says:

            Using your lack of logic, I’m going with Obama is a racist as he mingles with the Black Panthers. See how easy that was. Now I don’t consider him a racist, but guilt by association and throwing the term “racist” is juvenile.

            Ron Paul will try to keep the State within the confides of the Constitution, but honestly, America is done. Secession movements are building, you just need to decide whether you’ll join freedom or be left behind.

            I do support the complete abolition of the state. Head over to the Mises Institute. You’ll find many there who think the same as well.

            First and foremost, the very piece of private property that you have is yourself. In a free market, you acquire it from producing goods/services of value to other people who you exchange with. And i’m allowed as much as other people who produce goods/service are willing to exchange with be. That depends on the value of my production to them which is subjective. As for socio-economic inequality, we all can’t be equal. Resources are scarce. Even if you could make everyone equal overnight, by evening, everyone would be unequal again. And the very act of making people equal would be immoral as it would involve theft as you would have to steal from A to give to B. What you going to do when I stand in your way and stop you from taking my private property?

            I agree with Kyle, you are a joke and instead of using logic and facts, you use emotion in your arguments. We don’t live in a capitalist free market world, we live in a fascist state. So don’t even start talking about free markets till money is decided through the market process and not by government force.

  14. We must not allow people to hear alternative viewpoints! The only path towards a well ordered society is to enforce a rigorously controlled set of ideas! Power to the people (provided they’re the right people and have the approved ideology)!

    • Ben Fenton says:

      I am not ignorant, as you insist, to your viewpoint. But what you minarchists want is pure free market capitalism. You have no analysis of racism, homophobia, Islamaphobia, transphobia or other socioeconomic stratification. You endorse a reduction of the alleviation of those problems. You are everything that OWS should be opposing. So yes, I do not care about your agenda and I oppose you.

      • joe sweat says:

        and Ben? Your position as opposition is typical of your lefty leanings. It has to be your way or no way? The ism’s and phobias you describe are at the root of your failed policies. Their is no us vs them mentality except when you oppose something. We in Dr. Pauls campaign believe that you (although foolishly naive) are worth saving and stand with you against the tyranny of the International Banksters. To try and educate you as to the Real problems of your failed philosophies has been my work of 20 years, and finally we are winning. Peace, Liberty and Free Markets

        • Ben Fenton says:

          Those “ism’s” as you call them with such denigration, are important to the people victimized by them, who you so snidely dismiss. You are a typical white, privileged individual who doesn’t even know the arguments of those who oppose you. Read my article on the lie of free markets before trying to tell me that I don’t understand minarchism.

          • joe sweat says:

            Why Ben, you hate white people too? Don’t you want to try to understand me before you so snydley dismiss me Ben? A boy like me from the inner city raised by a single parent(mom) who was a nurse. I slept in a closet as my bedroom, my 2 ssisters had a room to share with mom. and we watched her go before sun up and home to make dinner. So when this priviledged son decided to go to college, awe there was no money. So I worked until I got self employed. So Kiss off with your Working class hero Bullshit, Bitch! I am the Epitome of the Working Class.

            • Ben Fenton says:

              Being working class does not alleviate you of male privilege. Assuming you are white, which I believe you are saying, you also have white privilege. Unless you actively work to destroy institutional racism, you support it. That makes you a racist. Thanks for the exemplary comments.

    • Ben Fenton says:

      Why should I publish Ron Paul propaganda? I am not a minarchist and I do not support your cause. However, I will leave the link knowing that anyone who frequents my page will see right through this reformist, pro-capitalist propaganda.

      Again, please stop pretending that the only reason someone disagrees with you is out of ignorance. This is happening over and over, and it reveals just how pompous and self-aggrandizing, not to mention privileged, you are.

      • Actually, that’s not “Ron Paul propaganda”… Stefan Molyneux actually got a lot of flak from RP supporters due to his stance on Paul. Kinda similar to what you’re dealing with now.

        He’s also not a minarchist, or a “reformist” and spends most of that video exposing the state as the problem and ends with him calling for it’s abolition.

        Of course you wouldn’t have known that due to your prejudice and preconceived notions.

  15. Resist understanding! These interlopers want to explain how the things we’re mad about actually work! Don’t let them! If we start to think logically we might have to stop blaming capitalism for the disasters created by the state!

    The kid in the video is the most informed person I’ve seen associated with Occupy Wall St. I actually didn’t think there was anyone that smart there. Here’s a hilarious clip from Occupy DC:

  16. Psychopaths are the contradiction that is the fatal flaw of socialism/communism. If you are going to try to do full consensus model, this is going to draw such creeps out of the woodwork. This is part of why representitive democracy isn’t such a horrible idea, it has just been hijacked. If all voices had equal volume instead of the richest being able to amplify themselves until they drown out the rest, and representatives had light shone on their non-logic-or-evidence-based policymaking, and WE THE PEOPLE paid ATTENTION instead of getting distracted by the latest shiny new thing, it could actually work. With crowdsourcing, it still can. We don’t have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but we DO need to look at the actual anatomy of that baby as we try to clean it up.

    • Ben Fenton says:

      I prefer consensus, it should keep things cool. But I just updated this post to state that I will refrain from addressing this issue, as it has me pretty bitter and I don’t think anything good will come out of addressing it. Thanks for reading.
      –Ben

  17. Linda MacMillan says:

    The danger of any movement is the infiltrator of those who want to use the movement to their own ends. OWS truly needs to stay a pure grassroots movement with the “I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it any more” attitude. It doesn’t matter if they all are there for their own reasons and have no leader because “What’s right” is the leader. Our youth are important and deserve to have a decent job, our elderly are important and deserve to feel secure in their old age, our families are important and deserve to keep their homes and the job to keep it, food to eat and cloths to wear. We are all mad as hell and we see the injustice in this country. I may not be able to be there physically but I can be there in spirit!

    • Ben Fenton says:

      Cheers to that, Linda!

      • joe sweat says:

        Well then, why hasn’t a century of renegade spending, printing money and Central planning achieved your goals kids? Because it doesn’t work. Leave me to my business growth. Don’t create boom and busts and I will create work for people. Not the Guvment. Government is the source of your woes and the OWS would do well to recognize the Failure of the Socialist agenda. Derserve a job and Security? WTF guarantees that?

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